Agenda item

i)                    To approve the minutes of the meeting of the Advisory Committee held on  7 October 2008  (attached marked A).

                                    To consider any matters arising from the Minutes.

ii)                  To note the draft minutes of the meeting of the Alexandra Palace and Park Board held on 21 October 2008  and the responses of the Board to recommendations of the Advisory Committee, (attached marked B, Bi), special meeting of the Board held on 5 November 2008 (attached marked C), and 6 January 2009 (attached marked D);and

iii)                To note the minutes of the Alexandra Palace and Park Consultative Committee held on 15 July 2008, and draft minutes held on 14 October 2008 (attached marked E& F).

               Minutes of the meeting of the Alexandra Park and Palace Advisory Committee - 7 October 2008

               RESOLVED

               That the minutes of the meeting of  Alexandra Park and Palace Advisory Committee held on 7 October 2008 be agreed as an accurate record of the proceedings.

ii.                        Draft minutes of the meeting of the Alexandra Palace and Park Board held on 21 October 2008  and the responses of the Board to recommendations of the Advisory Committee

The Clerk to the Committee - Mr Hart – advised the Committee that a revised set of draft minutes had been TABLED following some minor amendments submitted by Mr Aspden.

The Chair asked if there were comments on the draft minutes and whether Mr Aspden would wish to comment upon his attendance at the Board meeting on 21 October 2008.

Mr Aspden commented on the contents of the circulated minutes which reflected the discussions of the Board meeting of 21 October 2008.  The minutes recorded the exchange of views at that meeting between Members of the Board, the Council’s legal representative and himself.  Mr Aspden advised that in his view he had not done such a good job to get across the views of the Advisory Committee, and he offered his apologies to the Committee Mr Aspden in particular referred to the discussion at page 13 of the circulated minutes regarding Resolutions (a) i-iii of the Committee’s 7^th October 2008 meeting. It was his view that the first two responses did not address the points raised by the Committee regarding the future of the asset and the Firoka Licence arrangements, the findings of the Walklate report in relation to that agreement, and the levels of communication between the Advisory Committee and the Board.

The Chair responded that hopefully lessons had been learned in relation to the findings of the Walklate report, and that a further report was expected. The Chair commented that there needed to be further recognition by the Board of the need to consult on such issues in the future. He asked whether Councillor Egan wished to comment further.

Councillor Egan advised that the further report was yet to be completed and that this would cover a whole range of other issues arising from the findings of the Walklate report. Also, the Board would be considering an update at its next meeting in respect of governance – which had been highlighted in the Walklate report.  In terms of governance the Board would also in the next few months be looking at its relationship with the Advisory and Consultative Committees in terms of creating an open dialogue.

Mr Loudfoot also commented that the Report to the Board meeting did not go to any great depth in terms of the Board’s relationship with both the Advisory and Consultative Committees, as it was a code of governance for the trustees. However, given that the issues referred to were ‘live’, these would be flagged.

Mr Aspden felt that it would be appropriate to consider the process of consultation and, whilst he welcomed the idea of 1:1 meetings on an informal basis, in his view there needed to be some more open and informative dialogue between the Board and its Consultative and Advisory Committees.

In response to points of clarification from Ms Myers the Chair advised that the Board had delegated powers from the Local Authority and that in accordance with the 1985 Act had to act in an independent capacity and that this was sometimes where the conflict had arisen for Councillors.

The Chair felt that the suggestion from Mr Aspden regarding a three-party dialogue was one that should be progressed. To this end, the Chair felt that it would be appropriate to suggest the idea of up to two semi formal meetings between the Board and its Consultative Committee and this Committee.

Following further discussion the Committee felt that, whilst welcoming the views of the Chair of the Alexandra Palace and Park Board as expressed at the commencement of the meeting in respect of talking individually with Members of the Statutory Advisory Committee and also the Consultative Committee, the Board be asked to consider holding up to 2 joint meetings a year with both the Advisory Committee and Consultative Committee to talk about common issues and concerns in relation to the Park and Palace, in either an informal or semi-formal basis.

In response to points of clarification from Councillor Oatway regarding input to the Governance report, the Chair felt that it would be appropriate for him to raise comments when the item was considered at the forthcoming Board meeting. 

Mr Aspden then referred to the comments expressed during the Board meeting of 21 October by the General Manager in respect of the Advisory Committee (page 20) and his expressed view of the Advisory Committee ‘land grabbing’, which in his view showed the Committee in a bad light and was rather insulting. Mr Aspden commented that he had asked at that meeting whether Mr Loudfoot would wish to withdraw the comment, which had been declined, and he asked again whether Mr Loudfoot would wish to withdraw this comment.

In response, Mr Loudfoot advised that he would not be withdrawing his remark and that indeed would explain the context of the remark. In stating that he had not in any way intended to be insulting, the comment had been in the context of a particular issue (sub-leases being granted to the Cricket Club). Mr Loudfoot repeated his comment (expressed at the Board meeting) that such issues were not within the remit of the Advisory Committee and that the Advisory Committee could not (in a sense) regulate what it thought should be brought to its attention. Mr Loudfoot referred to the fact the Committee had moved on from a body that in the past had been ineffective (due to the fact that the meetings had been inquorate, and therefore unable to express a constructive response) to a position where, in his opinion, it was now attempting to exceed the ambit of its remit and advisory capacity. This was not in accordance with the 1985 Act. Mr Loudfoot concluded that he was terribly sorry if Members had taken offence at his comment. It was not meant to insult anyone, and he offered an unreserved apology. However, he would not be withdrawing the remarks as recorded.

Ms Hutchinson responded to some of the points raised by Mr Loudfoot by commenting that the reason why so many meetings had been inquorate was because appointed (majority) Councillors to this Committee had shown little or no interest in its ambit, and had therefore not attended, or only sparsely. It was the case that meetings were now quorate largely because of the attendance of the appointed Liberal Democrat Councillors. Whist she accepted that the Board did not have to act on the resolutions passed by this Committee it was unacceptable that the Board took little or no account of matters the Advisory Committee brought to its attention and it was a fact that this Committee was unable to challenge those actions.  In terms of the issue of the Cricket club and sub lease/usage – this was very much tied in to the new Heartlands School, and the fact that this school would not have any of its own recreational facilities and therefore there was a need to look elsewhere – the Cricket Club and Park being possibilities – and that this sort of matter did need to brought to the Committee for consideration.

Councillor C Harris declared an interest as Governor of the new Heartlands School.

In response to the points expressed by Ms Hutchinson Mr Loudfoot advised that the issue of the terms of the Cricket Club sub leases went well beyond the remit of the Advisory Committee.  It was the case that the Board did give consideration to the recommendations of this Committee but it was unable to enter into discussion or allow the disclosure of legal agreements and commercially sensitive information relating to third parties and that this was in effect what the Advisory committee had been asking to have sight of. Whilst it was and had been the case that the Board had allowed discussions in respect of the Firoka development etc, no commercially sensitive or legal matters had been disclosed.  The Board would welcome suggestions from this committee, asking it to limit the amount of use in sub letting the cricket grounds, but there was no obligation for the Advisory Committee to be shown the details of any actual subleasing arrangements/legal agreements.  Mr Loudfoot added that because of such requests, in his view he was under the impression that in terms of the requests to the Board of 21 October 2008, this Committee was acting outside the ambit of the 1985 Act.

Mr Aspden commented that the perception of Mr Loudfoot that the Advisory Committee was acting outside, or attempting to extend its remit outside the Act was outrageous. Whilst it was true that the Committee had expressed an interest in the terms of the lease, including adding the right to sub-lease, it had specifically excluded the rent. He expressed his concern that if Mr. Loudfoot held such negative views towards the Committee this might prejudice his ability to work effectively with it in future.

Mr Loudfoot responded by assuring the Committee that he would have no such difficulty and that, whilst reiterating his earlier apology in terms of not having intended any offence, he remained of the view that the Committee were ‘pushing on the envelope’ and he would not be withdrawing any of comments expressed either on 21 October 2008 or this evening.

Councillor C Harris commented that whilst she was unable to give a view as what had gone on in the previous administration, from the views of the new Chair of the Board (until December 2008) expressed at this Committee in October 2008 as to the future of asset, it was clear to her that there was a recognised need on the part of the Board for openness and dialogue, which had also been confirmed by Councillor Egan at the beginning of this meeting. Councillor Harris felt it was appropriate to move on from this discussion, noting the concerns expressed but looking to make a constructive response that the Board would be able to consider.

In sharing Councillor Harris’s comment Councillor Oatway felt that the Committee was able to move forward now that it had some clarification in terms of the future dialogue with the Board.

The Committee then clarified its response, and the Chair concluded and it was:

RESOLVED

i.                    That the minutes of the meetings of the Alexandra Palace and Park Board of 21 October 2008 be noted;

ii.                  That the Advisory Committee, in welcoming the views of the Chair of the Alexandra Palace and Park Board as expressed at the commencement of the meeting, in respect of talking individually with Members of the Statutory Advisory Committee, and also the Consultative Committee, resolves that the Board be asked to consider holding up to 2 joint meetings a year with both the Advisory Committee and Consultative Committee, to discuss common issues and concerns in relation to the Park and Palace, on either an informal or semi-formal basis;

iii.                That the Advisory Committee resolves that, in terms of any future proposals for recreation or leisure activity / uses of the Park (and specifically in relation to the new Heartlands School), the Board seek the views and advice of the Advisory Committee; and

iv.                 That in respect of (iii) above the Board be referred  to the Advisory Committee’s remit, namely to assist and advise the Board to achieve its objectives within the  Alexandra Palace and Park Act 1985, and it is not the intention of the Advisory Committee to hinder the Board in its management and operation of the Park and Palace;

v.                   That the minutes of the meetings of the Alexandra Palace and Park Board of 5 November 2008, and 6 January 2009 be noted; and

vi.                 That the minutes of the meetings of the Alexandra Palace and Park Consultative Committee of 15 July, 14 October 2008 be noted.